[NOPE] Bonus HD and stuff

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Do you think LA Races should get Extra HD?

No. [No Extra HD]

4
57%

Yes. [1 HD / LA]

2
29%

Judgement [Defined in Race file(s) per race.]

1
14%
 
Total votes: 7
odin
Posts: 96
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 14:17

[NOPE] Bonus HD and stuff

Post by odin »

I vote just to smash LA races to normal standard. It keeps everyone on the same footing and eliminates the debate. It's simpler, more fair, more transparent, and less min-max. And we don't have to maintain a second set of code to manage it.

cedric
Posts: 5
Joined: 22 Mar 2019, 20:57

Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by cedric »

I play a LA race, and I dont play it for the benefits I get. Mostly the LA is just a annoyance. So nuke away :D

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garrett
Posts: 24
Joined: 29 Mar 2019, 00:21

"Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by garrett »

Following on:
viewtopic.php?p=1929#p1929

Referring to: https://shadowgate.org/git/shadowgate/s ... ody.c#L586

Code: Select all

    myrace = (string)TO->query_race();
    subrace = (string)TO->query("subrace");

file = DIR_RACES + "/" + myrace + ".c";

if (file_exists(file)) {
    lvladj = (int)file->level_adjustment(subrace);

    // LA races have a flat 8hp per LA as "beast" levels from monster manual
    if (lvladj) {
        num += (lvladj * 8);
    }
}

if (TO->query("negative level") || intp("/daemon/user_d.c"->get_scaled_level(TO))) {
    num += sum_array(TO->query("hp_array"), (int)TO->query_character_level());
    num = WORLD_EVENTS_D->monster_modification_event(num, "health", TO);
    return num;
}
num += player_data["general"]["max_hp"];
return num;
}

I strongly feel this shouldn't be left as default, and should be left to a judgement.

Examples:

Drow (a LA twist on an Elf) shouldn't get bonus HD, neither should the Planetouched or ... whatever those angelic/devil/demon touched things are.

(Yes, this might be more work, but this can/should be fixed, but does not need to be fixed NOW.)

odin
Posts: 96
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 14:17

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by odin »

Again, I vote we nuke LA and bring all races into the same standarrd. It's the only way to solve this debate.

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garrett
Posts: 24
Joined: 29 Mar 2019, 00:21

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by garrett »

I think we're having a terminology problem. What do you mean "Nuke LA".

Explain what you would do and what steps you would take.

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chernobog
Posts: 20
Joined: 20 Jan 2020, 03:23

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by chernobog »

I feel like we'd have to nuke the templates, because they also play with the LA system.

odin
Posts: 96
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 14:17

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by odin »

Templates do not grant any LA.

Here are the steps I would take:

  1. All LA races would be brought into whatever standards we set for a normal race. Currently we have non-LA races as stat-neutral.
  2. LA would effectively no longer exist.
  3. Race would be mostly a flavor choice from here on out.
uriel
Posts: 56
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by uriel »

odin wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 19:51

I vote just to smash LA races to normal standard. It keeps everyone on the same footing and eliminates the debate. It's simpler, more fair, more transparent, and less min-max. And we don't have to maintain a second set of code to manage it.

Yes, Agree 100% with Odin! Transitition all LA races to normal standard. This will make it fair between all players, and preserve RP for everyone, and reduce min-max.

Also it will simplify the code base which is just littered with special cases and exceptions all over the place.

uriel
Posts: 56
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by uriel »

odin wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 22:47

Again, I vote we nuke LA and bring all races into the same standarrd. It's the only way to solve this debate.

Agree 100%. Nuke LA, use single standard. No special bonuses/abilities. Consider heritage feat trees to allow purchase of innate spells, etc.

diego
Posts: 16
Joined: 21 Mar 2019, 23:37

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by diego »

Here is a controversial Idea, why not change how LA is done...let the LA 2 level from level 1 up but cap them at 48? LA 3 capped at 47 etc

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garrett
Posts: 24
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by garrett »

diego wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 23:56

Here is a controversial Idea, why not change how LA is done...let the LA 2 level from level 1 up but cap them at 48? LA 3 capped at 47 etc

This is how it works now, and my current target.

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garrett
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by garrett »

@odin, @uriel, Okay. This can be put on a plan, but honestly not in my current changes I'm planning to implement.

Pushing this down the road.

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garrett
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by garrett »

Merged the "Nuke LA" conversation here.

faceless
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019, 14:41

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by faceless »

So I think in the interest of parity and giving all races the same potential it is important that we look at what nuking LA could mean. Everyone wants all the races to maintain their racial identity and that would be difficult to do with the current outdated racial attributes we use. I am not super familiar with pathfinder but I do have and have played d&d 5th edition and I think if we used racial attributes for all our races like they do in that edition it would be easy to keep the things that make out races special while still bringing them in line with others.

As an example, in 5th edition d&d a human gets +1 to two stats of their choice as well as a skill focus of choice and a free feat.

This is to reflect their variety and adaptability.

Elves base get 2 dexterity, darkvision, perception bonus, bonus saves against enchantment and charm and immunity to sleep and then additional bonuses based off subrace, high elf gets an additional point of intelligence a free cantrip of their choice(essentially a first level spell by our standards) and an extra language.

Essentially with all races working like this it is a lot easier to customize and give some identity defining abilities to the races while pruning some of the unnecessary extras that create the dissonance in power that causes LA to be necessary.

Feyri can easily be reduced to elf subrace with base elf bonuses and fly and change self as an example, it keeps what defines the races but let’s them all have the same access to class levels.

This I feel would be the ideal system, more streamlined and all the base races get to be a little more specialized on top.

uriel
Posts: 56
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by uriel »

garrett wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 22:29

...
I strongly feel this shouldn't be left as default, and should be left to a judgement.
...
Drow (a LA twist on an Elf) shouldn't get bonus HD, neither should the Planetouched or ... whatever those angelic/devil/demon touched things are.
...
(Yes, this might be more work, but this can/should be fixed, but does not need to be fixed NOW.)

Thanks for sharing this G... I would just get rid of the extra HD code period. I agree with your examples.

More broadly, we should nuke LA. It is not a well defined concept and allows creation of abusive races.

Why should 3 levels as Fey'ri net you <wing>, alter-self, dark vision, net +2 stats, net +4 skills, extra 24 hp, and +3 BaB? Oh not to mention alter self, darkness, a teleport spell (dimension door), and PK scry spell (clairvoyance) How is that fair? That simply cannot be balanced.

This stuff is pure twink. It needs to be killed dead :P .... Now I am fine if someone wants to pay feats for those features, but it should all be paid so that there are clear trade-offs.

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nienne
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Location: Straya

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by nienne »

uriel wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 01:56

Why should 3 levels as Fey'ri net you <wing>, alter-self, dark vision, net +2 stats, net +4 skills, extra 24 hp, and +3 BaB? Oh not to mention alter self, darkness, a teleport spell (dimension door), and PK scry spell (clairvoyance) How is that fair? That simply cannot be balanced.

Just to play devil's advocate - three levels of anything (feyri or otherwise) comes with a standard hp, bab, skills as they are "levels" the way they were coded. They come with a level in literally anything else as well. So it's not really a reasonable part of an argument that they're OP. The rest, of course, very much so :)

Garrett's proposed fix removes them from being levels anyway, and turns them into what they always were in 3e. Saying "feyri are overpowered" is an entirely separate (and apparently far more contentious) matter to the question being asked/voted upon here.

Stay on target... if racial balance is a concern perhaps start a new thread for how to approach that :)

uriel
Posts: 56
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by uriel »

nienne wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 02:08

Just to play devil's advocate - three levels of anything (feyri or otherwise) comes with a standard hp, bab, skills as they are "levels" the way they were coded. They come with a level in literally anything else as well. So it's not really a reasonable part of an argument that they're OP. The rest, of course, very much so :)

Garrett's proposed fix removes them from being levels anyway, and turns them into what they always were in 3e. Saying "feyri are overpowered" is an entirely separate (and apparently far more contentious) matter to the question being asked/voted upon here.

As I said, LA as a concept is not well defined. If 3 LA is just 3 levels, then you can justify HD, BaB, 4 skills, and maybe 1 feat.

If LA 3 means a hard level cap at Level 47 and forgoing the benefit of 3 levels, then you can justify things like teleport, scry, alter self, +2 stats that are on the Fey'ri ability list.

Here it seems like there is a desire to have BOTH the advantages of 3 levels AND the crazy abilities & bonuses that would justify a hard cap.

Hence the suggestion to just get rid of LA entirely and start everyone out on an equal playing field.

PS -- Great to hear from you both, N & G! I think the history of LA races was to give HM's something special that could provide a material advantage. But if HM's are gone and our goal now is to provide a level playing field, we need a way to allow RP options while also ensuring balance.

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nienne
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Location: Straya

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by nienne »

Yeah, at the time they were kinda just best we could fit in with the balance of the day. They were coded as the equivalent of monster levels, as far as 3e's handling - the argument at the time being that they can't have all the class levels AND these bonuses, so it was a compromise to prevent the class levels. But do remember too the context of that installation; there were no fey'ri, shades, or any of these souped up races we have now. Drow (and maybe ogre) was top dog at the time, and even it wasn't as souped up as present, no scaling MR etc. So paying 1-3 levels for what was only in many cases a +2 to some stats and a few passive bonuses/relatively useless spells didn't make much balance difference.

Given the races we now have, and especially some of the innate class spell abilities, it's a very different ballgame, and totally understandable why most are bothered by the imbalance that's resulted :)

That said, the point still remains that all of the above isn't relevant to the vote/request Garrett's posted here. His is solving the issue with the current system - which can be done much more quickly than the bigger questions other people are asking. Triage is a coding concept too :) If folks want to revise the race balance overall, a separate thread to brainstorm options (eg/ pathfinder & 5e both have nice racial balance ideas to yank) would be helpful. All this back and forth about imbalanced races is still fairly irrelevant here!

Nice to be lurking around again. You'll prob see snippets of me here and there :)

uriel
Posts: 56
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by uriel »

nienne wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 03:44

His is solving the issue with the current system - which can be done much more quickly than the bigger questions other people are asking. Triage is a coding concept too :)

OK, fair enough! To directly address the proposal -- it seems like a relatively small change. I don't know that it would effect balance much.

At most it will result in -24 HP to Shades, Deva, and Fey'ri. Drow will get -16 HP. Plane-touched will see -8 HP.

Since Beast races already have LA * 8 HP, they would see no change (i.e. Bugbear, Ogre, Minotaur, etc).

Do I have it right?

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nienne
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by nienne »

If what Garrett is working on is done, they will only lose the difference between the class hitdice they select, and the 8/level. Fighter/barb/etc may be better off, or not. Mages/etc definitely won't be. The 8hp/level was a default setting in exchange for the levels they couldn't previously access due to the LA settings, which if they can then level in a class, they will get to roll like everyone else. Same goes for BAB & skills - will become dependent on the class selected.

In many cases the difference will be negligible :) It puts them on the same playing field as everyone else. I think there's some confusion that there was extra freebie HP/skills/BAB going to these races, which isn't the case. It was only replacements for the inaccessible levels.

uriel
Posts: 56
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by uriel »

nienne wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 05:08

,,,if they can then level in a class, they will get to roll like everyone else. Same goes for BAB & skills - will become dependent on the class selected.
...In many cases the difference will be negligible :) It puts them on the same playing field as everyone else.

Which gets back to the original point nuking LA entirely.

If we are just going to give LA races the same standard class BaB, Skills, HD, etc that reflects the underlying class to "give the same playing field" then why have LA at all?

What is the purpose of level adjustment unless it provides penalties to balance out the advantages of the LA race?

rheyn
Posts: 3
Joined: 29 Apr 2020, 16:03

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by rheyn »

uriel wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 12:04

What is the purpose of level adjustment unless it provides penalties to balance out the advantages of the LA race?

Fewer spell levels?

odin
Posts: 96
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 14:17

Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by odin »

Also fewer class abilities based on level. Every LA SC thief misses out on a scramble stab, for instance.

uriel
Posts: 56
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by uriel »

odin wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 14:17

Also fewer class abilities based on level. Every LA SC thief misses out on a scramble stab, for instance.

A difference of 1d6 stab power; it isn't much of a nerf.

As a suggestion why not just set all races to LA0 for now? Everyone can get to L50 and be happy. Then over time nerf the LA races back into a single standard.

Advantages are 1) player happiness (L50 yay!), 2) no need to do a lot of extra code with special cases (LA code), and 3) we eventually get to a balanced single standard.

odin
Posts: 96
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by odin »

No, it's a difference of an entire stab. Thieves are limited to one scramble stab per ten levels of thief. That's a big difference.

Regarding your suggestion, not really. I could have races put back to a LA0 standard within about 2-3 hours if I really set my mind to it.

odin
Posts: 96
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by odin »

It's also worth pointing out on the new plan LA races won't be able to use +10 weapons.

uriel
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by uriel »

odin wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 14:41

I could have races put back to a LA0 standard within about 2-3 hours if I really set my mind to it.

If you are willing to do it, I would recommend this option! It keeps players happy and code simple.

odin
Posts: 96
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by odin »

Up to g. Not going to step on his toes when he's already started his project. will confer with him.

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ilmarinen
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Re: "Bonus" HD for LA Races?

Post by ilmarinen »

That's a nop.

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