[NOPE] Merc's fate

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Mercs should be removed as they are

3
12%

Mercs should be further nerfed as they are

2
8%

Mercs should be rewritten as they are

9
36%

Mercs should be kept as they are

11
44%
 
Total votes: 25
ashra
Posts: 88
Joined: 01 Feb 2020, 05:15

Re: Merc removal

Post by ashra »

http://www.memorableplaces.com/mudwimping.html

Wimping players is the start of the death spiral.

cyric
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 Jan 2021, 01:02

Re: Merc removal

Post by cyric »

We’ve got 20+ years and multiple wimpings and death spirals on that guy. Pretty sure we’ve been through all of those stages at least two or three times. Not that they were much fun, that’s why I keep reminding ppl what it was like and why we don’t want to go back to that.

—Cyric

tsera
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 18:06

Re: Merc removal

Post by tsera »

What I find amusing is that I have argued against so many changes happening so quickly lately, I have argued against dropping the level cap ( "whimping" much?), yet find so much push back over making adjustments to mercs that most newbies do not use much of (yet that is the biggest argument - it helps new players!) in an attempt to encourage more interaction (when available), more adventure of areas (yes, some will just grind the same areas over and over and over again, and that's on them), hopefully longevity of a character as they'd be able to get more developed (also, I have very recently quit a character for this very reason... I powered her too fast and did not take the time to let her evolve and establish. I could not get into her no matter how much writing, story telling, etc I did for myself. When deciding to quit, I honestly felt guilt and remorse for doing so, as it was effectively robbing other people that had started RP with this character of their interactions and effort to start any sort of storyline) to encourage the character (not just the player) to stay longer. We are ultimately an RP mud and we should try to encourage (not dictate) RP wherever possible. After all, we are a community of players, and playing together and building character relationships (both good AND bad) is our strength.

While I would personally just take mercs away entirely, that is a personal choice (who needs a healing cleric anymore anyway?), and I understand that they do serve a purpose to aid newer players when used in that capacity, hence the comments that they are like 'training wheels'.. "Training wheels are an additional wheel or wheels mounted parallel to the rear wheel of a bicycle that assist learners until they have developed a usable sense of balance on the bicycle", and further went on to state they are akin, in my view, to an extension of Offestry - another tool that is entirely choice driven to aid those that are in need of aid, but at some point, you learn enough to advance past that level.

The point of this 'vote' set forth by Ilm was to make your vote, state your reason for such vote, and move on. I do not believe it was made so that others could come on to attack the integrity or intention of the mud, call these reasons 'dumb', insert assumptions of what people are thinking and/or feeling, try to stir foul feelings by injecting that it is an intentional attempt to take fun from other players, etc. That serves ZERO purpose but to hurt more feelings and incite anger amongst the player base. This has been a historical MO of some people.

I personally feel that mercs take more away from the mud than they give, but that is an opinion and I have stated the reasons WHY I feel such. Most adults are able to come up with compromises, which I believe is what we are attempting to aim for.

So make your statement, but do not attack others or try to imply that you know their intention.

uriel
Posts: 76
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Merc removal

Post by uriel »

ashra wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 14:00

http://www.memorableplaces.com/mudwimping.html

Wimping players is the start of the death spiral.

LMAO -- Thank you Ashra, this is great!

tsera wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 15:17

While I would personally just take mercs away entirely, that is a personal choice (who needs a healing cleric anymore anyway?), and I understand that they do serve a purpose to aid newer players when used in that capacity, hence the comments that they are like 'training wheels'..

This has been a historical MO of some people.

FWIW, I disagree. BTW, try a SC Fighter or Thief solo through CT without a merc. It's hard. Mercs have a good function.

Regarding Historical MO. I think you have one too, and ... we can trade notes and tell stories at some point.

IMHO, it's best when we all play the way we like. I am in favor of mercs because they create joy :P

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chernobog
Posts: 32
Joined: 20 Jan 2020, 03:23

Re: Merc removal

Post by chernobog »

I don't think this train of conversation is benefiting anyone, and all parties have made their viewpoint clear. Throwing past deeds at people isn't pertinent to the discussion at hand. If anyone else would like to vote and explain their vote, I'd like to hear it.

tsera
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 18:06

Re: Merc removal

Post by tsera »

And there you are again, Myrkul... being the hateful, judgmental bastard you've always been with no real basis of your judgment. If you want to have a long, drawn out, in the dirt argument because you disagree with me on mercs, fine. I can do that too.

Lucky for you, I am not dealing with emergency family issues at the moment, so let's go. But this thread for input on what, if anything should be done with mercs, is not the place for it.

Your quote of me, just like your numbers, are hand picked and out of context to try to serve your purpose.

Seriously take your fucking pills and grow the fuck up.

rheyn
Posts: 10
Joined: 29 Apr 2020, 16:03

Re: Merc removal

Post by rheyn »

I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone's feelings, and I'm sorry (for my own sake) if I'm stepping into a raging storm conjured by powerful wizards while blinded by my idealism as a young hobbit on her first adventure to Lonely Mountain.

I was just puzzled that this was something to vote over, and mostly trying to understand what the different options might mean, and also genuinely interested in whether anyone could change my mind. Because if the mud improves by removing mercs, then of course that's what I want to vote for. And so, when someone use arguments that are important to me too - I would absolutely want to help the rp environment here if I can with my vote - then I hope it's understandable that I seek clarification by engaging in debate. (But if debates somehow are destructive then absolutely, let's not have them.)

But consider this: If someone asked you: Should we keep, delete, nerf of rewrite the World Tree?
Wouldn't anyone's first reactions, apart from the ones who use the tree all the time, be "??? Why are they bringing this up?"
And if the options were "Remove, nerf, rewrite or keep as is", wouldn't you want to know what is meant by nerf and rewrite and not just assume you know?

tsera
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 18:06

Re: Merc removal

Post by tsera »

Ah Rheyn <3 You are fine, and right to ask. That's WHY there are discussions, and why we state what our thoughts are. :)

It's ok to disagree. It's even ok to have heated disagreements so long as at the end of the day, everybody realizes we're all in the same camp, trying to get to the same ends (what's best for the mud and everybody playing)

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fluffy
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58
Location: Yeehaw Country
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Re: Merc removal

Post by fluffy »

I've RPed with plenty of oldies, high level and low, who have mercs. Dropping your merc in the barn of the inn in Attaya is normal before RP. In your own example, the one who suffered from the fast levelling was you, not others. Others were affected by your choice, but it was your choice. and I don't say this to guilt you, but to make the point:

Newbies don't use mercs much. Therefore, oldies are using them. Oldies can make the same mistake of levelling too fast, but they'll learn from it, especially since you and others have warned them of the danger. So, if they do it anyways, it's their educated choice to do so, and their fault if they ruin the fun for others. Or, they may benefit from levelling fast and RPing. I levelled Liz up fastish, and my best RP was at higher levels, so it's not a doomed option.

If we leave it to the votes, Mercs will stay in and mostly stay the same, but rewritten. While some people have been compromising, the reason some others haven't is that we don't see why it should change at all. RP damage is done by choice, not because of mercs. A lack of exploration is also choice. if anything, mercs make it easier to explore instead of rushing through for loot and trying not to die. You can afford to take your time.

We need a point that we can both agree on or understand. And you've been trying this. I think moving mercs nearer to Tabor and/or Offestry is good. The thing with a compromise is that people (including me) don't see the damage of mercs. It seems, to me, that most of what y'all blame mercs for can be blamed on people. All I use mercs for is healing, not really for fighting. Between my memory and reaction time, kits can't always cut it. By the time I can go heavy on kits (when Asgard doesn't worry me anymore), I've largely learned to work without them, except for bosses (in which case I'll need kits as well as heals). I'd rather make friends with a radiant servant, but those are rare (I keep planning to make one, and keep failing).

Anyways, I agree that compromise is a major goal. Otherwise, people upset at mercs will remain so, and a happy mud is a good mud. I'm not here to argue, per se. I want a result that everyone can be happy with.

I just can't see problems in the mercs, even when you're pointing it out. Those don't seem like merc problems to my eyes. But I also want everyone to be a little satisfied. The level cap discussions always leaves people pissed, and I want to avoid that. But, I'm not figuring out how to fix this.

Sorry if any of this is outdated. I started working on it at my dental appointment, and am just now finishing.

cyric
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 Jan 2021, 01:02

Re: Merc removal

Post by cyric »

  1. A certain area that can be solo’d or not by a class is not an issue in and of itself, so long as there are areas the class can solo other classes will have difficulty with.
  2. If certain classes have difficulty with ALL high level areas, then the issue is likely with those classes and we should consider a boost to bring them up to parity with the other classes. Maybe it’s possible all areas are simply calibrated for casters and we just need to tweak a few things, but my gut says this is not the case; my gut says fighters and thieves will fare worse than casters in every area, even if we boost SR to the point spells don’t always work (and this would be a nerf to casters so we probably shouldn’t do that off the bat anyway).
  3. Mercs are a good bandaid, but they don’t fix the underlying issue. They are also a weakness because they can be deliberately killed or driven off in a high level area, which is essentially a PK to the underpowered class. Incidentally, this is the first thing I thought of when I heard players were using them to get through areas they wouldn’t otherwise because I’m a sneaky cheaty bastard.
cyric
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 Jan 2021, 01:02

Re: Merc removal

Post by cyric »

ashra wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 14:00

http://www.memorableplaces.com/mudwimping.html

Wimping players is the start of the death spiral.

One thing this guy forgot are the people who refuse nearly any change out of reflex. They’ve been around a long time and anytime any kind of addition or change is suggested they’ll argue and drag it out forever, until whoever suggested it gives up and does something else. Not sure what to call this group, but we’ve had our share back in the day, and I’m partially guilty of this myself.

xantheous
Posts: 4
Joined: 04 Nov 2019, 03:35

Re: Merc removal

Post by xantheous »

i feel as though the mercs are fine just the way they are, if you dont want to use them then dont but they do help players who cant get a party explore the mud more. I think they could cost a bit more though they seem rather cheap compared to buying a ton of kits. If someone was up for rewriting something i would definitely like to see the followers upgraded as they are pretty janky at the moment and hard to use.

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fluffy
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58
Location: Yeehaw Country
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Re: Merc removal

Post by fluffy »

xantheous wrote: 09 Jan 2021, 02:12

i feel as though the mercs are fine just the way they are, if you dont want to use them then dont but they do help players who cant get a party explore the mud more. I think they could cost a bit more though they seem rather cheap compared to buying a ton of kits. If someone was up for rewriting something i would definitely like to see the followers upgraded as they are pretty janky at the moment and hard to use.

I would 100% drop mercs if we could use followers instead. Better combat abilities, but keep the permadeath on player kill, so they're still not too useful in PK. Maybe even make them hittable by mobs and permadeath. Then we can make a genuine adventuring party of individual characters when we can't get a group. And it forces you to be careful so as not to lose them. That would make it harder to powerlevel like with mercs, and encourage careful exploration, without leaving people solo. That sounds like a compromise I would go for! Oh, and they need to be able to join the player party.

tsera
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 18:06

Re: Merc removal

Post by tsera »

The only issue I see with the above is that getting rid of mercs in favor of followers defeats the “help newbie new players” point, as it takes a bit and feats to get followers.. and follower classes are randomly generated.

Otherwise, I too, kinda like that idea a bit.... so long as they can die.

Maybe a compromise is to move mercs closer to tabor and leave them in as they are until level 20ish, and then if you want more support (followers are an awesome rp tool and I am sad that killing them does not get rid of them... death should remove them from your list. It used to be that a new one would populate after some time.. can we get that back?) use followers (not in pk) as Fluffy suggested. That would also be kinda cool and maybe let people learn some about other classes while playing their own because you have to puppeteer them.

Oh, and when a new follower becomes available, maybe you get to pick the class, sex, etc.

hades
Posts: 35
Joined: 08 Jul 2020, 02:28

Re: Merc removal

Post by hades »

thank you for volunteering to update followers tsera :D

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chernobog
Posts: 32
Joined: 20 Jan 2020, 03:23

Re: Merc removal

Post by chernobog »

My only concern about followers getting buffed to be useful party members is that it approaches the realm of the mobs doing the work, instead of the player. This was the same reasoning to holding back on undead minions getting too strong. The player should be doing the adventuring, not just along for the ride. I'm not sure where the line for balance is though.

Also, yes. Make followers mortal so murdering them holds weight.

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fluffy
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58
Location: Yeehaw Country
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Re: Merc removal

Post by fluffy »

I thought followers were mortal. I thought someone told me that before. And yeah, mercs to 20th level at near Tabor seems acceptable to me. Also, even buffed, followers should not be as strong as players. Strong enough to survive in a level-appropriate area and therefore, but not strong enough to do the work for you. They can survive, but if you're not helping, they will not survive for long. I mean, I usually can't leave a merc to clean up mobs. If they can, then the area is too weak for me, and I'm probably not there fore the XP. So, if enough people's relationsips with mercs are the same, that's an ideal to aim followers towards. I know didly squat about balance, though.

Can we add "Make followers cooler than mercs" as a vote option?

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fluffy
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58
Location: Yeehaw Country
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Re: Merc removal

Post by fluffy »

tsera wrote: 09 Jan 2021, 16:34

Oh, and when a new follower becomes available, maybe you get to pick the class, sex, etc.

Also this. I made that race thing that needs finessing. Sex used to change when you first got a follower (before they saved well), so maybe you can keep summoning and unsummoning until you like their sex, then save. As for class, I still think that that should be random, though I won't mind the convinience of picking classes. Especially if bard is in the pool. I wish I could transfer Ru'athar between characters.

ziva
Posts: 1
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 17:47

Re: Merc removal

Post by ziva »

Why dose the game need to be harder? Why can't 'easy' be an option? I like mercs and I use mercs. Having the opportunity to hire a merc means being able to go out solo when you want to, and not die too frequently. I get that dying was worse before, but for semi new players like myself (who have known no different), dying still feels 'expensive', both in xp loss and in cost of repairing equipment (not everyone has mending at their fingertips). In my opinion, the ability to bring a merc along makes it easier to explore the game (mercs and having the ability to teleport 'home' if you get lost.) I found, as a new player with no ability of returning to a known location at will, made me more afraid to get lost out in the unknown world of SG, than to actually go out and explore it, so I kept to known locations mostly. Only after I got the security of knowing I could get back to a known location if I needed to did I dare explore more on my own. Anyway. Please dont remove mercs. I dont see why you need to. Having the option to hire a merc is very nice for noob players who never really move beyond the noob stage... (And I dont really care to be forced beyond the noob stage either, I play for easy fun and RP not to master the game or the bosses.)

cyric
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 Jan 2021, 01:02

Re: Merc removal

Post by cyric »

ziva wrote: 09 Jan 2021, 23:27

Why dose the game need to be harder? Why can't 'easy' be an option? I like mercs and I use mercs. Having the opportunity to hire a merc means being able to go out solo when you want to, and not die too frequently. I get that dying was worse before, but for semi new players like myself (who have known no different), dying still feels 'expensive', both in xp loss and in cost of repairing equipment (not everyone has mending at their fingertips). In my opinion, the ability to bring a merc along makes it easier to explore the game (mercs and having the ability to teleport 'home' if you get lost.) I found, as a new player with no ability of returning to a known location at will, made me more afraid to get lost out in the unknown world of SG, than to actually go out and explore it, so I kept to known locations mostly. Only after I got the security of knowing I could get back to a known location if I needed to did I dare explore more on my own. Anyway. Please dont remove mercs. I dont see why you need to. Having the option to hire a merc is very nice for noob players who never really move beyond the noob stage... (And I dont really care to be forced beyond the noob stage either, I play for easy fun and RP not to master the game or the bosses.)

When do you play? Let’s party.

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nienne
Posts: 72
Joined: 04 Apr 2019, 00:46
Location: Straya

Re: Merc removal

Post by nienne »

uriel wrote: 07 Jan 2021, 23:51

This is the whole point -- entertainment is the goal, and therefore let people play how they like best. If you don't like mercs, then don't play with one.

For my two coppers, this is -always- a valid argument in any matter that ever arises. It's a game and it should be fun, first and foremost. I'm still not against adjustments to the mercs, given how powerful they can be. And yeah I'm not exactly active, so take that as you will. But we do certainly have certain points over the last couple decades where some big crack-downs really killed the fun aspect for a while, so it's not bad to keep that in mind as well.

I'm sure at the end of the day, the admin team will take a measured approach, given how many people have posted about the value of the mercs :)

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ilmarinen
Posts: 192
Joined: 21 Mar 2019, 22:32

Re: Merc removal

Post by ilmarinen »

Words.
I hate words.

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ilmarinen
Posts: 192
Joined: 21 Mar 2019, 22:32

Re: Merc removal

Post by ilmarinen »

I had to commit to reading this thread and now I have a pocket cancer.
You all are bad.
/me hides in the pocket.

tl;dr consensus has been reached, mercs will be rewritten into shadowmonks.

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