Price buy/sell mechanics

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What do you expect from the rework?

Im happy with Wedex proposal

1
25%

Im happy with Manastarved's proposal

1
25%

I rather keep the old mechanic

1
25%

Im happy with the X proposal but it needs tune

1
25%

I want to propose another rework

0
No votes

I want YOU to propose another rework

0
No votes

What is this?

0
No votes
 
Total votes: 4
wedex
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 05:35

Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by wedex »

Vote to how this mechanic should work

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1163277436

wedex
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 05:35

Re: Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by wedex »

Options changed, sheet updated with samples and trying to be as clear as i can be. any questions here pls

Vote again pls

kismet
Posts: 200
Joined: 23 Mar 2019, 09:46

Re: Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by kismet »

Thank you for updating the spreadsheet :) Could you please clarify a few more things?

  • On the sheet labeled formulas, is the column labeled "new" the "Wedex proposal" in your vote?
  • What is the X proposal in your vote?
  • Do I have to understand the purpose of the sheets labeled "Wedex buy" etc. or is using the "formulas" sheet and the "sell mechanics" sheet enough?

I support making sell/buy influence based, but here are some thoughts:

In the "Wedex Proposal", would you consider capping influence at a lower range, so that spells do not affect sell/buy? Seems fairer across the board. Not counting racial modifiers, 66 is the highest you should be able to get without spells, but I would suggest setting the cap lower so that a character could hit it before level 50 (see below).

In either of the proposals, would you consider reducing your multipliers so that:

The sell value of an item for a low influence character is never lower than 50% and the buy value never higher than 125%?

Based on your calculators, those seem to be the prices for a 8 CHA character under the current system, which means existing characters may not be burned quite as bad. It’s not far from what Wedex seems to be suggesting, already.

If the overall goal is to have less gold in player hands, I also strongly suggest reducing the advantage of max influence characters to below that of the current system. Sell at 70%, buy at 90% for instance.

My main reason for suggesting to lower Wedex’ cap and reducing the ranges above is to make selling items slightly less level dependent – IMO we don’t need any more incentives for people to race to lvl 50. As an afterthought, please keep in mind that most high influence base classes have access to teleport and/or healing, while many low influence classes do not. With the removal of components, they already seem to be at a small disadvantage when it comes to gathering money.

hades
Posts: 25
Joined: 08 Jul 2020, 02:28

Re: Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by hades »

People can take a skill focus feat too and there are gears that give skill bonus.... I think there are some sus characters out there who can get up to 90....

But yeah, there should be a cap.

wedex
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 05:35

Re: Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by wedex »

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02
  • On the sheet labeled formulas, is the column labeled "new" the "Wedex proposal" in your vote?

Yes, now is updated to Wedex instead of New. Thank you.

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02
  • What is the X proposal in your vote?

That a change to influence instead of just charisma is good but you dont agree with the numbers. I should have clarify that point a bit more, but if i change the options again the votes are reset.

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02
  • Do I have to understand the purpose of the sheets labeled "Wedex buy" etc. or is using the "formulas" sheet and the "sell mechanics" sheet enough?

The current formula working just with charisma have simple results, its not dependant of any other variable. For most characters, and most if Cha is your dump stat, it wont change in your whole existance, so a single line with values is enough to compare as shown in the "Buy/Sell Current" sheet. In the other hand, Influence grows as you level up and it will change your buy/sell as you level and gear up, it depends if its a class skill, ranks, cha and level.
This means that for current we can say "well at level 15 a player might have 12 Charisma but if its a Cha based it might have 20. we can tune numbers according to that". Tunning is easier as most players are grouped in 2 types of growth.
But for influence we say "well at level 15 a player might have from 6 (12 cha, untrained, 0 ranks) to 21(20 cha, trained, max ranks)... we can tune numbers according to that but its harder". Tunning is harder as all players are not at the same growth.
Basically the table will help you compare the prices with your stats as you level up but you dont need to learn how to use the table.

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02

In the "Wedex Proposal", would you consider capping influence at a lower range, so that spells do not affect sell/buy? Seems fairer across the board. Not counting racial modifiers, 66 is the highest you should be able to get without spells, but I would suggest setting the cap lower so that a character could hit it before level 50 (see below).

Now that i see it, yes a lower cap seems better, 75 was the first value proposed. Looking at Mana's proposal 46 coincides with a 50lvl -4cha (score 2) + 25 ranks. there are notable values that should be considered:
Lowest Inf possible at 50: 6
Lowest Inf possible at 50 trained: 21
Lowest Inf possible at 50 with full ranks: 31
Lowest Inf possible at 50 with full ranks and trained: 46
Highest Inf possible at 50 with full ranks and trained: 60

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02

In either of the proposals, would you consider reducing your multipliers so that:
The sell value of an item for a low influence character is never lower than 50% and the buy value never higher than 125%?

Sure, actually its something we should all consider. My initial proposal was around those values (at 0 inf is 50% at -4 inf is 44%) but of course that can be tuned. My proposal also has the advantage that at lower influence, each increase gives more % and then it slows down as it reaches the cap. the downside is that the formula is hard to tune but thats okish. Mana's Proposal is easier to tune and right now it has a small overlap between buy/sell but thats fixable. as Hades pointed up, there should be no overlap because it causes profit on sell buy

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02

Based on your calculators, those seem to be the prices for a 8 CHA character under the current system, which means existing characters may not be burned quite as bad. It’s not far from what Wedex seems to be suggesting, already.

Actually, Mana's has the same model as the original formula (the highest/lowest are even almost the same), but the rate at a character gains influence is more variable than charisma, so it adds complexity to balance. My model on the other hand, is a benefit for low inf and punitive for high inf as my ranges are smaller and the rate has diminishing returns

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02

If the overall goal is to have less gold in player hands, I also strongly suggest reducing the advantage of max influence characters to below that of the current system. Sell at 70%, buy at 90% for instance.

Increasing the gap is a good idea.

kismet wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:02

My main reason for suggesting to lower Wedex’ cap and reducing the ranges above is to make selling items slightly less level dependent – IMO we don’t need any more incentives for people to race to lvl 50. As an afterthought, please keep in mind that most high influence base classes have access to teleport and/or healing, while many low influence classes do not. With the removal of components, they already seem to be at a small disadvantage when it comes to gathering money.

Thats difficult in both proposals as influence do grows with level. thats most of the complexity i talk about.

kismet
Posts: 200
Joined: 23 Mar 2019, 09:46

Re: Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by kismet »

Thanks for the thorough reply. It is much appreciated.

I can't write up the formula, but would you consider the following restriction on ranges?

Sell value: Min 50% at low influence, max 70% at high.
Buy value: Max 110% at low influence, 90% at high.

This would give high influence an edge and decrease money gain slightly overall (I think?) and avoid overlap completely.

I do realize it initially gives high cha a nerf and low cha a small boost, but in the long run high influence chars will be better off than low influence chars.

wedex
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 05:35

Re: Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by wedex »

ok, i have added some graphs to compare the data at fixed values and another set of graphs with Kismet's suggestions.

while doing it i realized that we need the following values:
min influence possible or a Min cap (current min is -4 at level 1)
max influence possible or a Max cap (idk the highest but the cap consensus seems to be around 45...)
a middle reference (not the half between the two previous values just a reference, ill explain it better in the example)
starting %, reference % and ending %

so for example we say we start at 0 influence min cap, 50 influence max cap, we have 50 points
then we say we start at 50% up to 70%, we have 20 percentual points points
now lets set the refencial points:
from 50% to 60% we will require 30 influence points, linear
from 60% to 70% we will require 20 influence points, linear (the remaining to 50)
so we define the formula based on 50/60/70% and 0/30/50
we repeat this logic for buy changing the 6 values.

wedex
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 05:35

Re: Price buy/sell mechanics

Post by wedex »

Added a new tab Simple Proposal based in Kismet comment.
The formula is unique but uses 9 parameters (it can be an array)
It has a breakpoint (Ref) to define how fast is the progress. Check it out!

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