Quest Walkthroughs

Issues, gameplay, direction. Everything game related.

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Should we offer quest walkthroughs?

Yes. Power to the Newbies!
2
18%
No. Back in my day, we had to travel naked through Demongate with only a string bean for a weapon. Blindfolded!
0
No votes
Per Fluffy's post: A guide. Hints, suggestions, maps, tricks and tips. But not a walkthrough.
9
82%
I don't care. Go away.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 11
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titania
Posts: 11
Joined: 03 Aug 2019, 18:41

Quest Walkthroughs

Post by titania » 27 Sep 2019, 18:36

Just wondering how the masses feel about us providing quest walkthroughs. I support the idea because:

1. Old players have done the quests dozens of times and it's a clear advantage over new players (the rules state we should feign not having any knowledge of a new area, but I haven't actually seen anyone do that since the early 2000s).
2. Nobody HAS to read a walkthrough if they'd rather figure things out on their own.
3. Gamers these days expect their games to provide walkthroughs, so it's really just catching up with the changing times.
fluffy
Posts: 22
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by fluffy » 27 Sep 2019, 18:50

I'm conflicted. I have used existing cheat sheets for SG, but largely as a memory aid (I have moderate to severe memory problems). And there have been some quests that seemed impossible to figure out by themselves. The Drow city is notoriously difficult, and even the Azha theatre, I needed some hints.

On the other hand, if there's a walkthrough, what's the point? We talked about godmode not that long ago, and I do worry about making the game so easy that there's no real challenge or interest. The fun of quests is figuring them out, not just killing things and getting loot (for me, anyways).

But, I know that, with other games, if I am absolutely stuck, and can't figure out how to move forward, I'll look up just what I need. Or if there's mechanical advantages to certain things (which stage grants more xp, how to do x thing most efficently), I might look that up, as the game wouldn't explain that anyways.

I've thought as I've written all this, and the idea that seems most appealing to me is, not a walkthrough, which tells you exactly how to do which things, but a guide. Hints, suggestions, maps (CT map would be awesome, no?), tricks and tips. Things that can make the game more accessible to newbie, but doesn't just give them everything. Because yes, it's a choice for them to look up a walkthrough, but a helping hand is much more fulfilling than straight up giving the answers.
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titania
Posts: 11
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Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by titania » 27 Sep 2019, 19:00

Added as a poll option :)
nienne
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Joined: 04 Apr 2019, 00:46

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by nienne » 29 Sep 2019, 22:31

Additional vote option - figure out which areas have the "impossible syntax" (drow underdark top of my list, CT prob second... chandelier anyone?) and actually make it both visible & simply phrased. Some of our ESL players have also run into this problem in a big way, so it would be fairer on them. I'm agreed on the fun of exploring being one of the strengths SG still maintains over modern games - but syntax wars are not fun at all. Walkthroughs become far less necessary if there's not all the no-hint-hidden-bits to guess at their existance, and/or horribly syntaxed commands.

I guess more close to the 'helping hand' option of fluffy's than any other. But removing the need for the helping hand at all if possible.
fluffy
Posts: 22
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by fluffy » 29 Sep 2019, 22:39

Fixing what's broken sounds excellent to me, as well. If people are willing to use report areas with no hints, or no intuitive hints (game bug, or game idea?), that could help immensely.
nienne
Posts: 25
Joined: 04 Apr 2019, 00:46

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by nienne » 30 Sep 2019, 05:24

Even between us we can prob find a good chunk of them. Most of the ones I can think of are older - newer areas are usually a lot more apparent. Depending how obvious we want to be, we can go as far as to actually highlight syntax to avoid the phrasing fight entirely (between <thingers>, color codes etc) so we're simply left with real exploration. Suggestions off the top of my head:

-drow underdark (multiple)
-ct (multiple)
-azha theater (mixed bag, most are ok but some are a bit obscure; eg/ screen tear before the first harpy boss)
-sanctuary (sewers are not too bad; the crates in the lower floor of the building are awful from memory)
-argentrock?
uriel
Posts: 23
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by uriel » 01 Oct 2019, 05:00

How do you want to talk about the shortcomings? I could be very explicit but that's definitely quest info.

Player houses (Tonerra, Tonovi, Juran, etc etc)
Stellar Castle (x2 supremely hard to guess)
HM quest is heroically bad :)
Dagger Drow, Demongate, Barrows, Derro
Muileann
Yntala Forest & subareas
Aramanth

I do have an alternate solution! I have an idea for an item, but this could easily be adapted into a perception check:

All the items (i.e. look painting), searches (i.e. search painting), and room actions (i.e. turn knob) are coded as a mapping array of key:value pairs.

Code: Select all

 
 set_item(([ look1 : result1, look2 : result2 ]));
 set_search(([search1: found1]));
 add_action("action1_fun","action1");
 add_action("action2_fun","action2");
 
You could just make an array of keys and give them to the player on a successful perception roll.

Perception is rolled against each member of the array of keys: (("look1", "look2", "search1", "action1", "action2"))

...As you step into the room, you notice "look1" and "look2".
...As you step into the room, the back of your neck tingles as you notice "search1" looks very suspicious.
...As you step into the room, you think you might be able to "action1" and "action2" something here but the details would require deeper thought.

Anyways, that would simplify things immensely without giving away the farm. After all, the action is just the verb, it doesn't tell you the object (i.e. "turn" not "turn brown knob").
fluffy
Posts: 22
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by fluffy » 01 Oct 2019, 05:43

I like this, as well.
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beshaba
Posts: 23
Joined: 28 Jul 2019, 05:34

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by beshaba » 01 Oct 2019, 07:54

The only reason I don't like that option is that it ties the solution to a skill. The quests are really testing the player, not the character, and I think it would feel better to clean up the puzzle pieces so they have the proper information at hand. We already have two areas that limit access based on stats and that can be really frustrating as it is, especially for a new player.
nienne
Posts: 25
Joined: 04 Apr 2019, 00:46

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by nienne » 01 Oct 2019, 22:36

Agreed per Beshaba - some characters do (and roleplay-wise should) have crappy percept. Which then removes what is effectively an OOC tool to know the syntax - not an IC mechanic that only some should notice. This should have an OOC solution if we're going to - eg/ highlighted text, or the <search> command fielding the above by default to everyone, or whatever.
uriel
Posts: 23
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by uriel » 02 Oct 2019, 04:13

Good point, Bes & Nienne, about Perception not going to work for every character!

The way I imagine it was as both an active and passive ability. Passive would be helpful for those needle-in-a-haystack situations where there is like a secret search in a single room out of 200 other substantially similar other rooms (*cough* Dino Island *cough*).

Anyways, Nienne's idea about fixing up the old areas is outstanding!
fluffy
Posts: 22
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by fluffy » 02 Oct 2019, 05:13

Por que no los dos?
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ilmarinen
Posts: 420
Joined: 21 Mar 2019, 22:32

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by ilmarinen » 10 Oct 2019, 19:35

If only everyone voted first option... We'd post the rest of the source to the github, but no....
-.-zzz

Resolution: "Per Fluffy's post: A guide. Hints, suggestions, maps, tricks and tips. But not a walkthrough."
uriel
Posts: 23
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Quest Walkthroughs

Post by uriel » 26 Nov 2019, 07:07

OK, so I just implemented a new command based on everyone's feedback. Try out <actions> and it should show the items, searches, and actions in a room. A limitation is the actions tied to items (won't show). Also it will show the verb of the phrase but not the object. For example it will show <pull> but not <pull lever>.
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