[DONE] Perception and Stealth

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gaius
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Joined: 05 Nov 2019, 17:22

[DONE] Perception and Stealth

Post by gaius » 22 Nov 2019, 00:22

So, first off, let me say how much I like that stealth and invisibility are finally separated. That said, does no one else find it a bit onerous to do search checks on a per room basis?

Since you can stealth in one room, and then move into numerous others without needing to re-stealth, can we get perception to at least attempt to counter match it?

Skills are a direct result of applied points and stats, and I feel that in instances like a stealth versus perception check, either perception needs a passive chance to detect the entry of stealthed individuals, or like stealth itself, you make your 'search', and it sticks with you a few rooms like stealth currently does.

At least in this manner, it is a fair check between players skill and stat investment. It still gives stealth plenty of advantage as until they directly enter a room, short of a few spells, they are unseen by things like 'peer'.

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone does a search, and finds a character, is there a pause (short as it is) that puts them at disadvantage? If so, I think that should likely be removed - the stealthed individual shouldn't be rewarded for getting sniffed out, and the code as it is makes it very clear they were found. At very least, it should not be made known so that the observer can choose whether they want to out the individual they caught, or play it off.

A preemptive thanks for any input!
fluffy
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Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 04:58

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by fluffy » 22 Nov 2019, 00:43

Search sticking for more rooms doesn't really make since... but having perception checks whenever someone sneaks in, especially if they open doors, does. And yeah, pause on find should be deleted or be attacked to theif, not searcher.

Although, now that I think about it... don't sneaks have to reroll their stealth for every room? I remember sometimes sneaking just fine, and at other times failing, as I move from room to room. If I'm right about this, that means that your perception is just lower than their stealth, and you have to reroll by searching in order to find them.
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beshaba
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Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by beshaba » 22 Nov 2019, 01:19

Is searching even a roll? I thought it just automatically finds any hidden folks? It already seems harsh that a universal command can negate any level of stealth.

Also, I know that I've stealthed down a road successfully and then had someone notice me enter the room. I'm assuming that means perception is being rolled on entry.
fluffy
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Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by fluffy » 22 Nov 2019, 01:36

Mewbe this has backfired, and now finding sneaks on search will be a roll.
gaius
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Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by gaius » 22 Nov 2019, 02:07

I'm fairly positive that perception is not passive in the slightest bit. If so, then somehow every single character that I've had, even with massive wisdom, perception as a class skill, and max level, has failed each and every time.

The sneak command has always been one of this things you could either macro/bind to movement commands, or simply do in one room and have it often stay up in multiple rooms. I've used sneak and gone twenty+ rooms with it staying active.

At very least, I could see perception acting as a passive (taking 10) like effect when a stealthed character enters/moves.

If perception checks are only going to be through active search command use, I feel search checks should allow a peer as if you're actively searching ahead, etc.
nienne
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Joined: 04 Apr 2019, 00:46

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by nienne » 25 Nov 2019, 00:09

I can confirm at least at the point of the old skills conversion (and most work done with them up until a year or so ago) perception had no influence at all on search/noticing stealth. You either succeeded or failed to sneak/hide (stealth roll) and that's where it stopped. So unless something new was put in since the server move, it prob needs added.

A random thought - a toggle on/off stealth mode instead of a whole separate command to sneak room to room. Let it roll as you move (and relevent perception opposed at the same time if people present). Additional benefit to this code-wise being that if we could remove sneak command, the unintended bypass of a lot of room triggers/traps would also be gone - you wouldn't have to default to GoThroughDoor or whatever it is. Musings on a Monday :)
uriel
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Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by uriel » 25 Nov 2019, 04:46

Gaius & Nienne,

"Hidden" is a binary status in the same way that "invisible" is a binary status. This has drawbacks but the benefit is that it is very simple. You are either hidden/invisible or you are not.

In SG, there is no differential stealth/invisibility. We don't have hidden/invisible status for some players but not others. Some characters can use spells/potions to see hidden/invisible, but none of those are passive. All see invisible or find hidden abilities are active -- meaning you actually have to cast see invisible or search.

To maintain the simplicity of code but give a helpful hint, I would propose the following:

On a heartbeat, for each hidden/invisible creature in a room, roll perception vs stealth/spellcraft. If perception is successful, send a message "You hear the breathing of a hidden or invisible creature in the room". If there are like 5 abyssal soul terrors, you might get a message "You can hear the distinct breathing of five hidden or invisible creatures in the room".

That way the status of hidden or invisible is not removed but the player gets an indication that there might be a lurker.
nienne
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Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by nienne » 25 Nov 2019, 10:43

This was basically my suggestion - not implying to put status/etc :)

My second line was more of a general quality-of-life for sneakers, bundled with a perk that'd help room/area coding in the meantime! Separate idea to the first. Much as you can toggle some feats on/off.
uriel
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Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by uriel » 25 Nov 2019, 17:26

Yeah I was mainly worried about a situation where a successful perception roll removes "hidden" or "invisibility" status.

I can definitely see a problem if there is a highbie sitting in a room with a bunch of lowbies. A sneaker (or invisible) tries to enter. All the lowbies fail perception checks, but the highbie is successful. Then the sneaker loses "hidden" status and all the lowbies can see the sneaker in addition to the highbie.

That's the situation I would want to avoid!
gaius
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Joined: 05 Nov 2019, 17:22

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by gaius » 25 Nov 2019, 19:02

I certainly would support any of the ideas thrown out this far. I earnestly appreciate all of your input :)
uriel
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Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by uriel » 08 Dec 2019, 06:43

Hi Gaius,

So based on that suggestion, I implemented a passive perception roll. So every 2 rounds or so, there is a skill check between the player and the hidden/invisible creatures.

The skill test is the player's Perception + 1d20 vs Stealth + 1d20 for hidden creatures.

The skill test is the player's Perception + 1d20 vs Spellcraft + 1d20 for magically invisible creatures.

And for Hidden & Magically invisible creatures the Perception +1d20 must be higher than Stealth+1d20 and the Spellcraft+1d20 rolls [those are two tests, not commulative]. So there is a potential benefit to hiding while magically invisible.

If the perception check is successful, the player receives a message that there skin is crawling as you sense the presence of hidden or invisible lurking creatures. Now the player still has to search or cast detect invisible to find them!

Give it a try ! Happy to make any changes the group would like.

Best,
Uriel
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beshaba
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Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by beshaba » 08 Dec 2019, 12:35

This seems to defeat the point of splitting hidden and invisible.. also, perception is getting double duty in working for both.
gaius
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Joined: 05 Nov 2019, 17:22

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by gaius » 08 Dec 2019, 14:56

Splitting hidden and invisible still has worth, in that spells like detect invisibility, touchsight, etc, don't automatically allow for someone to be seen as they enter a room. It's even better when they are on the move, as peer is useless for finding hidden creatures even when said spells active.

As far as perception getting double duty - yeah, that's definitely true, but I'd say it's pretty in-line with the books, which is why it is probably the most rolled skilled in the game. That said, at least it is based off wisdom, which can serve as some limiting factor. I mean, if we're concerned about double duty, just take a look at stats like DEX and see how much it offers (AC, saves, prime stat for stealth/thievery/athletics, and can give hit and damage) - you can easily max dexterity as a character, and know you're getting massive bang for your buck (much more than any of the other stats).

I like that it factors in different skills when comparing invisible to hidden, and it should still give hidden the upper hand in accomplishing ambushes - two rounds is plenty to get in and begin an attack. I think the idea of magically enchancing hidden to increase difficulty for detection to be a solid idea. Obviously, we'll have to observe and see how it plays out in game - I'm sure tweaks can be made as necessary.

Thanks Uriel for taking a crack at it :D
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beshaba
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Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by beshaba » 08 Dec 2019, 17:08

That's fair, put that way. I'm still not a fan of search in it's current form though. Everyone can do it, it takes no time, can be spammed, and is guaranteed success against a hidden target. This new test just reminds you to search.
gaius
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Joined: 05 Nov 2019, 17:22

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by gaius » 08 Dec 2019, 17:33

Yeah, I could see search (at least against hidden foes) be put to a roll like anything else. I wouldn't mind it on a timer ala the watch command, but obviously that has issues with exploration/dungeons (though the actions command certainly helps offset it considerably).

What about the possibility of having search take a couple of rounds (and seen by a room like someone actively taking 20), giving folks time to either exit, or attack, when they see an active search occurring? Then it's not nearly so spammable.
uriel
Posts: 23
Joined: 20 Aug 2019, 05:09

Re: Perception and Stealth

Post by uriel » 08 Dec 2019, 17:35

Everybody else can modify this to heart's content. This was just an opening crack at it. I think Ilmarinen has created some exciting changes. I also need to look at that <search> command -- although NecroCat likely already beat me to it! He is fast!
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