[NOPE] Lore/Song/Story for All

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Should all classes get access to lore/story/song?




Total votes: 12
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[NOPE] Lore/Song/Story for All

Post by odin » 17 Apr 2020, 14:44

I'm considering allowing all players to have access to the lore/song/story commands. My reasoning is thus:

  • It provides no mechanical bonus to bards.

  • More people having access to the commands would mean more lore getting retold.

  • A number of bards I have seen don't really do performances anyway.

  • Bards are strong enough mechanically that they don't need these Quality of Life upgrades exclusively to maintain class identity.

  • Timers on Mudlet apparently work better, but forcing non-bards to use something client-side seems silly.

These are just my opinions, but I wanted to reach out to everyone on this.

Community is too divided on this currently.

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Re: Lore/Song/Story for All

Post by odin » 22 Apr 2020, 23:49

Just a reminder that this poll will expire in two days. Make your voice heard.

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Re: Lore/Song/Story for All

Post by garrett » 23 Apr 2020, 03:07

I’m relatively against this (thus my vote is “no”, with a lowercase n), because if everyone gets it, why become a Bard?

I know there were plans in the past to teach stories and songs to other Bards, but those have gone unrecognized.

My plan when I was starting to come back was to let stories and songs provide a similar mechanical benefit to those of you who played World of Warcraft called “Rest XP”, providing a reason for people to “stay a while and listen” for various reasons and RP Reasons.

This was an inkling back in my eye way back when I put in the XP Tax system, I intentionally put in a “Positive XP Tax” in order for this to happen, however, I’m struggling with my mewtivation.

... but that’s my ideas and my voice. I still have not gotten a decent handle on the how, but this is the broad brushstrokes of the idea.

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Re: Lore/Song/Story for All

Post by kismet » 23 Apr 2020, 09:43

Would it be possible to add a stripped down "recital version" for non-bards based on current code, preferably tied to influence/academic skills?

So non-bards could:

Create a story (number of stories known based on academics?)
Recite a story (requires a set min. ranks put into influence?)

Bards could use lore as before (regardless of skill, because it's a class feature), gaining the benefit of any additions put in by Garret, who I will love for ever and ever if he puts this into motion. Now if you could allow bards to use a variant of the echo command in stories/songs, we're really talking! Maybe in addition to XP (for the bard, too, I hope!), you could look into something like healing (song of rest, 5th ed(1)) or medium length mechanical benefits, perhaps modeled after heroes feast(2)? Or maybe I got a bit carried away!

In any case, this way everyone has a basic recital option, but playing a bard is still your best option for creating stories (no limits, more options, mechanical benefits down the line).

(1) http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/bard
(2) https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Her ... st#content

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TL;DR: Bards should stay cool

Post by fluffy » 23 Apr 2020, 17:37

Non-bards aren't prevented from telling stories or singing songs, it's just easier for bards - as it should be, the RP value is worth it. And I've seen bards perform at the Rhaps or Scarlet Whip (can't remember the name) on too many an occasion to write it off. All of my bards had some things in their repertoire (assuming they made it past 10) including dances, songs, and stories all. My last bard went to Antioch specifically to learn from their bard. and the Bard's guild could and should sell songs/stories to all members.

I don't see why it should be spread when non-bards can do these things just fine. If they want the specific mechanic, they should choose the class with that mechanic. If not, and they just want a big fish tale or two from backstory, they can alias or nickname that in, no big deal. Bards are professional actors, singers, and performers. Why take away their biggest ribbon, the one that has so much of their class flavor?

Might as well play an arcane trickster or thief-mage, then. I really want to see Garrett's Rest XP in, and to keep the spirit of bards alive. Nienne worked hard on them. And I think roleplay aspects of classes are absolutely as important as mechanics. We shouldn't give up what makes this game a story (heh) even a little in a roleplay insensive game.

I feel that you'd be taking away the soul of the bard if you do so, and leaving just the bones behind, which makes the class less of the RP treasure it is in exchange for something that people can already do. The experts should be distinguished as experts. If everyone is an expert, no one is, and there goes the bardiness of the bard.

PS: I can't even make a TL;DR concise.

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Re: Lore/Song/Story for All

Post by ilmarinen » 30 Apr 2020, 04:24

  • At least three people (Eduardo, Balur, Nerinphe ) already use timers or other in-client means instead of <lore>.
  • Timers violate rule#1.
  • <lore> allows to avoid violating rule#1.
  • <lore> equalizes players able and unable to code their clients.
  • Not only bards can sing
    • Not only bards use songs to invoke the weave as well
  • Enforcing rule#1 regarding timers when violating it is a habbit is pointless.
  • We don't have resources to police a "no" option as policing will fall onto me and plogcat scripts.
  • Mechanical part of bard's performance is implemented in rally.

If it was something important...
Is this issue important?..

Bards that voted about "feeling special", is this issue worthy of weighted consensus or simple majority would be sufficient?
I'm pointing out that if you vote "no" nothing will change about "feeling special": non-bards will be able to perform songs, often much better than you as nobody will police them.

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Re: Lore/Song/Story for All

Post by fluffy » 30 Apr 2020, 04:57

I don't care as much now, though I would still want Garrett's Rest RP concept in.
It was never so much "Other people shouldn't sing, or tell stories", but that bards should do it better, as that's kind of the point and flavor of their class, being expert performers to the point that they can create magical effects with their acts and songs. Rally and the spells as features like anger and charm are cool, and all, but out of combat is where a bard shines best. So, something that continues to give their performances value over others who haven't dedicated themselves to the art of, well, art, would be nice and keep the bard's role as an RP-heavy class secure.

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