Multiclassing Updates...

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garrett
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Multiclassing Updates...

Post by garrett »

So I believe that advance and abandon are now working off "base character" levels, i.e. levels not including any level-adjustment, while experience to advance is based on base character levels + LA.

I've already updated the stats command, so it should also be based on base character levels, and I need to go through and update the other following features. Included are my thoughts on the changes I should make, though my thoughts will be obvious, almost everything should be based off base character levels except experience needed to advance..

Skills: need to work off base character levels ; Some LA races might get additional skill points, mewbe, but these can be handled on a race by case basis.

Wear / Wield are currently going off +LA character levels, these will be also adjusted to work off base character levels eventually. I'm dragging my feet on this so we don't get people who suddenly can't wield signature weapons or whatnot.

Hit Points - I've seen code for two methods of resolution in the code, I need to dig in and check which is currently working, and whether or not we should be granting HP for LA Hit Dice (I could go either method, though again, also willing to handle on a race by case basis.)

Please let me know if you think I'm off-base on any of my assumptions, but I think going on the base character classes for everything but advancement is what I intended when I put in multiclassing.

-- g

uriel
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by uriel »

garrett wrote: ↑
16 Jun 2020, 14:40

Hit Points - I've seen code for two methods of resolution in the code, I need to dig in and check which is currently working, and whether or not we should be granting HP for LA Hit Dice (I could go either method, though again, also willing to handle on a race by case basis.)

Please no extra hit dice, no extra caster levels, no extra base attack bonus (BAB), no extra feats, and no extra skill points!

The entire point of level adjustment is to create a max level that is lower (L37, L38, or L39) than that achievable as a human (L40).

The choice should be between getting a cool race with awesome features versus maximum power possible in a human.

odin
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by odin »

I agree. They currently get BAB and HP, but I wish they didn't.

faceless
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by faceless »

I think maybe a compromise would be best on this as a lot of people are playing races strictly for the racial rp and not for the bonuses which leads to them already ending up weaker than what should be less powerful races. These races shouldn’t have less potential and even in tabletop there wasn’t a cap to their power they just advance slower. Advancing slower isn’t a feasible option here due to the ease with which one can advance anyway so how about we look at doing things a bit differently.

What if all races start baseline on even footing? All the current la races get their bonuses reduced down to be on par with baseline races like human, elf, etc. Now we are making our race choice based on the rp we want. Then we do something like a paragon level system. All races have 3 paragon levels and essentially can boost themselves to become superior versions of their race. Essentially meaning all races can achieve what we see currently as an la version of itself. This creates parity between the races mechanically so that we don’t need to deal with awkward power dynamics and also gives everyone the same potential. The rp is more important to your race choice than what stats or penalties you will have. These paragon levels could even be further customizable with each race having multiple options to choose from on each paragon tier to allow further customization. This would also streamline the issues we are having with the abandon command as we wouldn’t have to worry about anything messing with the standard advancement track.

Anyway just a thought from someone who plays an la race that only hurts him mechanically and is tired of dealing with being weak because he got to teleport at level 1 :p

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garrett
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by garrett »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not wanting to add features into current LA classes. I'm looking to make sure that if a LA-Adjusted Race is supposed to have bonus HD (as part of the 'pricing' for a LA Race), they get them, same for skills, etc.

I just need to go through and keep cleaning up the code as I go, assuming I haven't broken anything yet.

eleazar
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by eleazar »

Race levels when?

odin
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by odin »

I can confirm the BAB, not sure about the hit points. Will look.

Advance_d.c line 331. Confirmed.

tsera
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by tsera »

So... is the goal to make these unplayable or what?

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garrett
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by garrett »

odin wrote: ↑
16 Jun 2020, 17:20

I can confirm the BAB, not sure about the hit points. Will look.

Advance_d.c line 331. Confirmed.

... but the get_hp_bonus, which rolls up the hitpoint array for the PC, doesn't seem to take LA into account at all. And it doesn't return anything, hence needing clean-up.

https://shadowgate.org/git/shadowgate/s ... e_d.c#L437

@tsera: Not trying to make LA's unplayable at all here.I'm trying to make sure they're given the bonuses they're due for the LA adjustment they are.

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garrett
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by garrett »

eleazar wrote: ↑
16 Jun 2020, 17:13

Race levels when?

Not Soon[tm]

odin
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by odin »

Looks like it's handled here:

https://shadowgate.org/git/shadowgate/s ... ody.c#L586

Now 8 is probably too low by todays standards, as we are giving a bonus of 2 hp to all class-based HD, so maybe up to ten per?

Also, @tsera, the goal isn't to make them unplayable, but if they get all of the bonuses of a normal level despite being LA, what's the point in the LA to begin with?

faceless
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by faceless »

The LA was made how it was by Nienne back in the day to be treated essentially as racial levels. What you miss out on are class level benefits. An la 3 caster for example loses out on 3 caster levels and 3 levels worth of spells known and the last bonus magic feat. They aren’t meant to lose out on base advancement benefits. They are still considered a 50th level character at max thus they get the feats and skills and stats and hp of base advancement.

odin
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by odin »

Right. I think everything is working that way and no-one has an issue with the way the way things are working (aside from idea to just smash LA in general and bring all races in line with base races, which I'm ok with). When I said "bonuses of a normal level" I probably should have said "bonuses of a normal class level"

uriel
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by uriel »

faceless wrote: ↑
16 Jun 2020, 16:04

...racial rp and not for the bonuses which leads to them already ending up weaker than what should be less powerful races...
..These races shouldn’t have less potential and even in tabletop there wasn’t a cap to their power they just advance slower.
...Anyway just a thought from someone who plays an la race that only hurts him mechanically and is tired of dealing with being weak because he got to teleport at level 1 :p

Really depends on which version of D&D you are playing. Demihumans had hard caps in 1st and 2nd edition.

Shades and some other LA races have benefits equivalent to bonus feats, like fast healing, teleport or alter self.

These are fundamentally not balanceable unless there are actual level caps.

By the way Teleort at Level 1 allows class decisions that would be much more difficult with other races. Example, Vanilla SC Thief, Fighter, or Barbarian are a pain in the butt to play because no teleport. Getting a teleport at level 1 would make all the difference. This is a major advantage.

faceless wrote: ↑
16 Jun 2020, 16:04

What if all races start baseline on even footing? All the current la races get their bonuses reduced down to be on par with baseline races like human, elf, etc. Now we are making our race choice based on the rp we want...

This is an excellent point and agree 100%.

Honestly get rid of all abilities, stat bonuses and penalties. Let players select a race and take a free "heritage feat" at Level 1 with benefits equivalent of human ethnicities. Then allow all players to buy additional heritage feats to obtain racial features like fast healing, alter self, teleportation, telepathy, etc. This is based on 3rd edition heritage feats like Fey Heritage, Fiendish Heritage, Blooded, Snake Blood etc.

A feat buy system will let everyone RP how they like and the playing field is level. You only get the benefits you pay for :P

odin
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by odin »

This would be easier to accomplish if we took races in the PF direction (i.e. all races are stat positive, rather than stat neutral). Drow, which are LA1 here, are effectively LA0 in Pathfinder.

rheyn
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by rheyn »

uriel wrote: ↑
16 Jun 2020, 23:56

By the way Teleort at Level 1 allows class decisions that would be much more difficult with other races. Example, Vanilla SC Thief, Fighter, or Barbarian are a pain in the butt to play because no teleport. Getting a teleport at level 1 would make all the difference. This is a major advantage.

It's only an advantage at low levels, isn't it? Once you've maxed out your character, if you plan to continue playing them it no longer matters that you could teleport at level 1... Or am I missing something?

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chernobog
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by chernobog »

rheyn wrote: ↑
17 Jun 2020, 09:20

It's only an advantage at low levels, isn't it? Once you've maxed out your character, if you plan to continue playing them it no longer matters that you could teleport at level 1... Or am I missing something?

That depends on your class. Teleportation as an innate spell is still useful for melee classes at max level, for example. But yes, the innate spells will be overshadowed by your caster class.

rheyn
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by rheyn »

That's true. And I would think that certain magical abilities are gained through items at higher levels. With spellcraft anyone can use scrolls, right? But yes, I see how an innate ability makes certain powers more accessible.

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garrett
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by garrett »

Okay, bringing this back to the topic, I was not suggesting and will never suggest:

  • Making LA characters unplayable or completely undesirable

  • ALL LA Characters get one or more of: HD, Skills, Stats, Guardian Bunny Summoning at Will

  • setting things in stone so they can never be changed again.

If an individual LA adjusted race gets one or more of extra skill points, stat points, or bonus HD, that's part of their level adjustment.

I'm going to change the language I'm using. I'm going to start to call the class levels you gain for advancing as "earned" levels below. This is kinda how I've been thinking about it, so maybe it makes more sense since I'm thinking of them this way.
What my thoughts again are:

  • When you gain stat advances, you get them at every 4 earned levels

  • When you gain skill points, they're based on earned levels.

  • When you use equipment, it should base off your earned levels.

  • You're can use your LA+earned levels in enter level-gated locations (do we still have these?)

Keep in mind that when I say "Bonus HD", I mean above the base 30 HP all characters get as per the advance code.

Re: viewtopic.php?p=1929#p1929 ... I am not sure I like that, because if you're a LA3 character because X, you're also getting 24 HP. which sounds to me like you're getting two benefits, instead of a benefit balanced out by it being harder to advance... I want to defer this part of the discussion / bug to later, if possible?

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nienne
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by nienne »

faceless wrote: ↑
16 Jun 2020, 20:33

The LA was made how it was by Nienne back in the day to be treated essentially as racial levels. What you miss out on are class level benefits. An la 3 caster for example loses out on 3 caster levels and 3 levels worth of spells known and the last bonus magic feat. They aren’t meant to lose out on base advancement benefits. They are still considered a 50th level character at max thus they get the feats and skills and stats and hp of base advancement.

This, exactly, was the original mechanic - LAs, given the system we had, were effectively "monster levels" the way 3e used to treat them. So they had to come with HP and BAB and skills etc, or adjusted races were going to be left very shorthanded.

If everything runs off class levels now (except exp obviously), then all of that would need to go. As they would gain everything a normal character would do, in being to advance normally through all class levels ("earned" levels or whatever). They'd be on parity with a non-adjusted character of the same class level, it'd just take them more effort (exp) to do it. Which is how LA races are actually supposed to work anyway :)

Staying neutral on racial balance and stat-positive stuff and feats etc - that really just depends what source material everyone likes, given they're all balanced in different ways. Garrett's fix would at least provide a balanced basis to run with these kind of options!

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garrett
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by garrett »

To be honest, I haven't found any "HP from LA" in the code. Maybe I've mindlessly steamrolled over the BAB and Save bonuses, though I'm going through and finding some weird stuff.

For instance... rage prophet gets full character levels as caster levels... that sounds broken?

Psions had a feat that was going off character level rather than max of psion or psiwarrior level, and now I want to see if I can't find where they regen their power points to make sure that's right.

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chernobog
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by chernobog »

A lot of the prcs give full caster levels for your base class now, it also helps with the melee classes like thieves to get full stab bonuses.

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yves
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by yves »

garrett wrote: ↑
22 Jun 2020, 06:48

For instance... rage prophet gets full character levels as caster levels... that sounds broken?

Rage prophet has pretty strict class requirements compared to most of the prestige classes and I believe that they only get the full caster levels if they are raging, which comes with a set of penalties to a lot of spells... I think.

xantheous
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by xantheous »

I believe rage prophet used to cast at full CL but that has been scaled back to base caster lvl + the PRC lvls. for example my lvl 20 druid and rage prophet makes a lvl 30 caster. I could be wrong though.
Edit Also think it only applies to offensive spells while raging for spell caster buff

odin
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by odin »

Rage prophet gets full casting levels once they've gotten their level 4 feat. Furthermore, they get +3 casting levels while they are raged.

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nienne
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by nienne »

odin wrote: ↑
24 Jun 2020, 11:28

Rage prophet gets full casting levels once they've gotten their level 4 feat. Furthermore, they get +3 casting levels while they are raged.

And they said eldritch knight was good :D

odin
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by odin »

They're probably equivalent in power level, but Rage Prophet is such a more niche thing.

tlaloc
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Re: Multiclassing Updates...

Post by tlaloc »

Rage prophet is much more awkward to get working. Eldritch knight is so versatile and makes so many combinations work.

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